Complexities of Conversation

 

I have been taking a free class online on sex and gender throughout history. I also got lost in the comments and ended up in conversation with someone who had vastly different understandings of sex and gender. I will only include my own responses. I am not including the person's screen name and while I disagree with her this is not a judgment call. (Also as is clear over the last few days I have composed several long responses so I figured I could count all that writing towards this blog LOL)

The whole conversation started with another fellow student asking how those who might consider themselves more conservative feminists would fit within the working definition we were using for class that feminists were anyone who was involved in a "political movement or programme that was aimed at bettering women’s social status."

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I think those who would consider themselves part of a "conservative feminism" would see themselves as "bettering women’s social status" by bettering the social status of "being a wife and mother" which they would see as bettering the social status of what they consider the best roles for women.

In general what it means to "Better women's social status" is highly dependent on the particular backgrounds and traumas a particular group of women have experienced. There is no clear "one answer" which is one of the struggles of the women's movement overall.

I would guess that we will cover more of the diversity of views when we get to looking at intersectionality, I am guessing we will look at the roles race, class, economic status, community supports, all play in what a woman or a group of women is seeking when they call for change..

Using a related example is the movement for LGBTQ+ rights in my home country (USA), at one point marriage equality became the over all focus/goal, but that focus was seen as predominantly a cis-gendered white issue, as many trans women of color point out they are still fighting so that they will not be murdered.

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Maybe I was not clear I was using marriage equality as an personal example to show all movements encompass a wide range of individuals with different backgrounds so there are different understandings of what the goals of such movements should be.

For example: As a white women I am always aware that historically white women have stood in the way of conversations around BIPOC women's experiences and the complex challenges they face/needs they have.

Your comment ""Cis-gendered" is rejected by many feminists as suggests we're comfortable with socially constructed gender stereotypes." gave me something to think about.

In communities I have been involved with using the term cis-gendered is a way to call out my own privilege. The challenges of cis-gendered and trans gendered women are related but are not the same. I have used the term cis-gendered in the past to highlight that I am aware of my own privilege and recognize that other women do not have the same institutional privileges.

I also understand language means different things to different individuals/communities and I apologize to my trans sisters if I have used the wrong language/used outdated language.

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Yes women across the world face various forms of oppression, and what that looks like depends on where they live, but those who are transgender especially those who are trans women face oppression on multiple levels, the oppression felt by all women in their cultural context + oppression because they are trans.

While we can disagree about exactly which rights/who we mean when we use a term like feminist, I personally can not agree that trans women are more privileged than other women in the same cultural context or that trans women of color in general are somehow more privileged than I am in general as a cis-gendered white women, in America.

I don't personally know any cultural context where trans women are more privileged than cis-women when background, race, and socioeconomic status are the same, though plenty where both groups are deeply oppressed. And saying otherwise "feels"* like an attack on my trans sisters and an attack on me as a cis-gendered woman.

In the USA this Friday happens to be Transgender Day of Remembrance so I am particularly sensitive to these issues.
 
We can disagree about feminism but not that trans women are women, and are oppressed too.

* This was in response to her comment (emphasis added): "Many women don't feel they're any more privileged than, for example, some who have lived/worked most of their lives as a boy/man with advantages that may entail ..." 

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Also I have to say this has been an interesting conversation we have had about how different communities of women in different contexts have different ideas about privileged/oppression. I simply have heard many first hand accounts from friends about the multiple layers of oppression they face as trans women.

I think instead of competing for who is the most oppressed we need to build a bigger tent that is self aware and makes sure that the complexities of intersectionality is wrestled with. Every women (cis-women, trans women, other female identified individuals, and nonbinary individuals) faces oppression in some contexts and privilege in others and no two women have the exact same experiences. We need to work together in order to create more just systems where we all can thrive.

Also to your point "It suggests women & girls are oppressed because of their "gender" (some say they identify with) rather than because they were born the female sex." Yes this is true or maybe a better word would be "and/or" vs. "rather" since women face discrimination both because of their sex and their gender and their gender expression.

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Then the other student said 

" I don't have a "gender expression"-I'm a woman." 

"I'm not convinced that women are discriminated against because of perceived gender-it's because of our sex & because we have female bodies."

(Now I completely disagree because I know that there are many forms of discrimination and while it can be because someone has a female body all too often discrimination occurs because how someone expresses themselves does not fit what others in a particular community/organization think that looks like but at this point this conversation had been occurring in the comments over several days and I was done)

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Well then I simply wish you find the language that works for you to describe your own sex/gender/gender expression. For me and many of my friends and my communities we find such language useful to talk about our experiences, to put those experiences in a wider context, and to look at who historically has been allowed a seat at the table when we have these conversations. But if that framework does not work for you that is ok and I hope you find a framework which works for you.

Wresting with sex/gender/gender expression is a very personal journey and each of us takes different paths and draws different conclusions.

Also one final note I never said you had to or should use cis-gender etc. language for yourself, I simply said that I personally use such language to describe myself because it is the language that makes me the most comfortable and feels to me like it best describes my personal experiences and the experiences of many of those I care about.

(Thank You, in my circles this is simply the language that we all use to be inclusive, you have reminded me that different groups of feminists see that language differently, it has been eye opening)

Have a great day.

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This whole conversation ended on a relative good note, considering it all. The other student said:

"Thanks. It's good to express disagreement in a respectful discussion. I think there are too many assumptions that everyone is OK with language being changed in a way, which many women feel excludes them & their experiences."

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So did I change her mind? Nope. Did she change my mind? Nope. But I still feel it was a fruitful conversation even if there were several comments not mentioned here which fell like attacks on me and my identity as a woman. It was also interesting how strong her reaction was to my use of cis-gendered to describe myself and my own privilege. How she was able to interpret how I identified myself as an attack on her.  

While I won't say this was an easy conversation it was also doable because it was with a stranger I will never hear from again but in the end I think this can be an example about how we can try to have hard conversations with others.

I also learned that there are more people who have strong reactions to what I have already assimilated into my awareness of issues around sex and gender. I often forget that everyone has not had the same experiences I have had and that means they have very different understandings.

So there is no Big summary or result of this conversation but I still found it interesting and therefore am sharing.